Welcome back back again again!
If you were here last week, you know we were in the middle of interviewing Edmund. If you weren’t here... well, now you know, too.
This week we’ll continue with more questions for Edmund and find out more about his growth as a game developer and a game creator.
What kind of work did you do before you started making games?
Edmund: Tons of jobs since I was 15. My first was at the SPCA, cutting stuff around there and doing manual labor for a summer. Right after that I did cameraman work for a show that was on public access. I enjoyed that a great deal. I worked in a factory with my dad; they made pieces of washing machine parts. I worked at Blockbuster for a year, GameStop on-and-off and the other things it became—different iterations on-and-off for many, many years. I was still working at GameStop if I needed money; after Gish had won IGF, I went to doing that part-time.
How and when did you start designing games?
Edmund: When I was sixteen, I started making comics, then I started making games in the Duke Nukem [engine] with mods. I made a lot of stuff with Duke, Doom and Quake in the later years. Then I was making games with Klik & Play. There was a game I made called Build the Lower Intestine. I don’t remember what it was called, but I used to make pretty in-depth games with this weird ASCII editor.
[NOTE: At this point in the interview Edmund has another negotiation with his daughter Peach. I’m still uncertain who the better negotiator is yet, but given that Peach is 1/10th of Edmund’s age, she has the clear advantage.]
Are your life experiences intrinsic to your game design?
Edmund: The games that I make are pieces of my life reworked. I’ve found a way for people to experience little bits and pieces of who I am by putting them in interesting game design.
What’s your first game that you say is “my first game”?
Edmund: Dead Baby Dressup! was my first game. I didn’t think it was a game. When I was making games in high school, I remember thinking if I could make a game, I could join a studio and that’d be something I want to do. But I also remember thinking that there was no way, because I’d only be happy making games at a studio if they would listen to my ideas... and no one was going to listen to my ideas. There was no way anybody would be down with the stuff I wanted to do. I thought at least I could make cartoons or do animation or something. I was leaning towards 2D and 3D animation at the end of high school. That seemed to be my only real option. Truthfully, I didn’t want to go anywhere; I didn’t want to work for anyone. I wanted to figure out some way that I could do it myself.
In my sophomore year of high school—or maybe even freshman year—there was a guest speaker named Clay Butler. He was a local cartoonist; he had his own comic strip under syndication called Sidewalk Bubblegum. It was a political comic strip. He had multiple animations that played on public access as well as Spike & Mike's Sick & Twisted Festival of Animation. I felt like no one gave a shit except me. I was like, “Oh my God!” I was in awe. He was like a movie star to me! I was enamored by this, and the idea that it could be his job. He talked about it, that he didn’t make a lot of money but he was really happy and creatively fulfilled and that sounded like the most amazing thing in the world. I just want to do anything and everything to get a little closer to where this guy is at. All I want is this guy’s creative life.
Even now I feel envious of these crazy artists like Tonetta—somebody who can really just make art all day, every day, and never worry about the financial aspects of it. Be himself, unbridled, and let the creative juices flow. I’m not going to complain, because I feel like the compromises I’ve made are very slim.
I didn’t think I’d be doing the Repentance [development], but it’s been one of the more enjoyable experiences I’ve had. Same with Mew-Genics—I didn’t think I’d ever get to work on that again, but I’m pretty proud of where it’s going.
For you, what’s the sweet spot of your game dev and your art?
Edmund: The original Isaac, where it was super simple. It was just me and one other person. No expectations, no real profit is being thought of. The last game I made like that was Fingered. And that’s the reason why I continued to work with James and made Bum-bo; it was such an easy, effortless experience that I enjoyed it.
I would love to do that and get back into just making a bunch of small games that don’t matter but are creatively fulfilling. I feel like in order for me to grow and not stagnate, I need to have fun and be able to make goofy stuff that is “worthless,” because then I can learn. It’s like sketching or drawing—I’m still designing and still kind of innovating.
If Bum-bo had come out a year or two after its conception, it would have blown the minds of a lot of people, because it would have been like Slay the Spire before Slay the Spire. That didn’t happen. Creatively, I need to dive into the black unknown and pull some things out of there and take a leap to be able to get something out of left field like Isaac or Time FCUK.
What's your value in game developer and art?
Edmund: My value is in my theme and game design. That’s my high true value. The only thing I can do differently than other people. Design and theme isn’t something that can be quantified. You can’t put it against someone else and see whose design and theme is better. All designers hit the ceiling. I feel that the level design from Celeste can give me a run for my money in terms of level design, and I feel the same way about Spelunky. There are so many of us at that level and you don’t really go higher than that. Game design goes to a certain point.
But when you talk about theme or the richness of how theme talks to design, how design talks to art, how art talks to story, pulling everything together into one cohesive theme... it’s limitless and can’t be ranked or put against something else. The reason why I’m good at that is because I’m telling bits and pieces of who I am, and I try to stay true to the things I’ve experienced and be as honest as possible. And in the process, I’ll produce a unique experience, because it’s a piece of my unique life. That’s where I feel my talents lie, and my ability to speak through it in an abstract, artistic way.
When it comes to art, I’m to the point that I’m literally hiring the kids that were fans of me 10 years ago. [laughs] Because they’re better than me, they do my art better than I do. I could throw ten of them at you, they all grew up with my work and they can draw just like me, but better. What’s interesting, too, is that I feel more comfortable working with fans of mine, because there’s an understanding of my work that I can’t explain with just words.
Before we get into Isaac dev, do you have some memorable kid stories about games?
Edmund: I didn’t get an NES until I was 10. I was the last kid on my block to get one. I lived next door to my realtor, Alma, for a few years. That block was full of kids who were actively trading and borrowing NES games and trading information about said games. Carlos had an NES; he was my closest friend on the block.
And I remember vividly that when Mario 2 came out, I thought it was the coolest shit ever. I didn’t have an NES yet. I faked being sick, stayed home from school. I broke into their house and went in and started playing for a while. I remember playing the hell out of it. Then his mom woke up and came out yelling at me, “What the fuck are you doing in here?!?” I remember running away screaming. She vividly remembers, too, which is funny to bring up when we bump into each other so many years later.
For my 10th birthday I got an NES, finally. Things were already bubbling for Super Nintendo at that point. The cool thing was that there were already a lot of discounted games at that point. I remember there was a game called Werewolf—it was a piece of shit, but I loved it.
That era of games must have made a real impression on your future game design career, whether you knew it or not at the time.
Edmund: Yeah, Mario, Zelda and Mega Man were significant. But Super Mario Bros. 2 was the most significant for me. It was a game where I really loved the design overall, but it was the character design and the world that I really liked, the multiple characters. It really felt like they were telling little stories with the characters; I thought they all had a uniqueness to them. It felt weirder than “Mario” Mario and it had so much character. If you look back now, a majority of the standout characters came from Mario 2.
You know the origin of Mario 2... that there is a different Super Mario Bros. 2 in Japan?
Edmund: Yeah. Doki Doki Panic. Wasn’t their SMB2 just “hard” Mario 1…?
It was pretty clever to “skin” Doki Doki Panic and make a whole new game with these really colorful characters.
Edmund: Don’t forget Luigi, Peach and Toad. All of those characters were made from this game that wasn’t originally a Mario game. The fact that people think that Toad is a strongman little guy that can pick anything up comes from that game. Princess Peach being able to fly, even Luigi being a weird oddball... it comes from that game, where they made him thinner and taller.
Castlevania was another; I loved the gothic and movie monster theme. The furthest I ever got was Death. I could never get further than that. Zelda was the most magical; it felt like a living game. We didn’t have the Internet, so nothing was spoiled. Kids would go around burning trees for days until they found a secret. All the greats. It’s not like I have some niche game that influenced me more than others.
I loved Mega Man, not because of the design. I don’t necessarily think that the controls and general design of Mega Man were very good. It was so fucking hard. I think the appeal is in the robots. It’s a traditional samurai movie game. You’ve got to go kill the samurai, and with each one you kill, you gain a skill. And they just abstracted that into this cool thing. I’m not even into robots, but I could dig Mega Man because it kept it organic and kept it unique.
The NES era was major. Me and Danielle collected NES games for years before it was a thing. We had 452 NES game cartridges. I had to sell them to make Super Meat Boy. I sold all my stuff to do that. It was fun collecting and it was fun playing, but it became a hassle to move; it was insane.
Any random games that were memorable?
Edmund: The most obscure games I actually enjoyed were Shadowgate, Deja Vu and my favorite was Uninvited—it was like a more horror-oriented Shadowgate.
I know you liked Sega CD, did that inspire or influence your decision to prototype Camdrome?
Edmund: Yeah, for sure. That and stuff like Night Trap. I really liked how weird and kind of creepy some of those digitized videos looked; it made them look creepier. That might be why a lot of people thought Night Trap was worse than it really was, because it looked creepy.
The Sega CD was a way for me to play PC-style games, because we couldn’t afford one. We didn’t get a PC forever. I had the 32X, too; the shittiest of the shitty. The only game I ever had was Doom. And did you know that it wasn’t even the full version? It was the shareware version, not even the full version of Doom. I beat it and there’s no cyber demon. Where’s the spider? It just ends after the first chapter! It was so fucked and the most disappointing thing in the world, because it had taken me forever to get all the components to hook up the 32X to my television. When I finally did, it was a week after Christmas and I finally beat it. “Where’s the second chapter?”
And after 32X? Any inspiration there?
Edmund: I missed the PlayStation; I never owned one. I had a PS2. I loved my PS2—it had a lot of great games. I had Nintendo 64. I sold the 32X, Sega CD, Genesis and all my games to buy a used Nintendo 64 and Mario Kart. I eventually started buying other games. I would play Mario 64 on the demo kiosk at Sears. I did play a shitload of video games, but they were not as significant in my life as movies and music. For me, growing up... I liked playing video games, but music was huge for me. Music was more of an artistic influential thing. It was my number one, and movies—especially horror movies—were number two. Then games.
I was alone all the time, so I got into whatever I wanted. I was walking the railroad tracks when I was seven or eight years old for porn. There was an adult bookstore called Frenchy’s, probably 10 blocks from my house growing up. People would buy stuff there and rub one out on the tracks and leave their material there. I remember some of the first boobs I saw were stuck together and had to be pulled apart to be seen.
So what music was an influence?
Edmund: Guns N' Roses and Nirvana. I dabbled a bit with Beach Boys and MC Hammer and a little C&C Music Factory. I remember really getting into R.E.M, Nirvana and Guns N’ Roses. I really like the grunge era. And yes, Smashing Pumpkins’ Siamese Dream is probably my favorite album of all time. That album was phenomenal.
Did you ever see any of your favorite bands in person? (Aside from Matthias’ band?)
Edmund: I could have. It’s one of my biggest regrets. My dad was a bouncer at a local club here in Santa Cruz, The Catalyst, which was a really big venue for rock bands in the ’90s. So my dad saw Nirvana, Pearl Jam... he used to get me autographs, but I was always too scared to go because I was only 12 or 13. The whole grunge scene was the opening into everything, and I dove deeper into weirder stuff like Butthole Surfers.
Nine Inch Nails?
Edmund: I appreciated the rich themes in Broken and The Downward Spiral; those are things I always strive for in a video game. That sort of rich theme that flows throughout the game that tells a story.
The one thing that makes me different is that I want the experience to be more like a song. At the surface it feels more open to interpretation, but it’s more about setting a tone. You set this tone, you say a few words, you throw down a few images, you’re painting this abstract picture that doesn’t necessarily tell a story, but it evokes a feeling or experience. That has more value than traditional storytelling to me. I feel like I learn more about that through music than traditional media and the way video games do it.
It’s very clear with the new Repentance music that it’s going to lend a very specific feel for the game.
Edmund: I’m super happy with everything, it’s crazy. When it comes to most tracks, I’m the only person to check it out and I’m very critical. But with this game, I feel a responsibility to check with Vinh. If it’s something for one of the alt areas, I want to make sure it’s to his liking. But we’re very much of the same taste.
How would you describe his understanding of music?
Edmund: It’s always a little surprising to me. Usually, most programmers I’ve worked with don’t care about the other disciplines, but he ventures into each one of these things, so he has an opinion about stuff and he has feedback, which is always helpful. The only way to get better is to have someone I can bounce ideas off of and make sure I’m not being lazy. My laziness and Vinh’s perfectionism balance each other out.
You’ve worked with us for a long time. What are the differences you see in young programmer/designers like Adrian, Tyler and Vinh?
Edmund: Tyler and Vinh are similar. Tyler is obviously a very skilled programmer. He’s making his own engine, he’s also a designer... but he’s not an artist, so he doesn’t have an opinion on that. Those are his allocated stats.
You and Tyler went with a remaking of famous classical songs for The End is Nigh soundtrack.
Edmund: Tyler researched the songs and chose the majority of the music.
My wife loves the soundtrack. That soundtrack is fantastic; we’re going to produce the audio CD and vinyl next year for The End is Nigh. But the whole game is fantastic. The game as an experience stands as one of my favorite games of all time, all these amazing things together. It’s such a great game.
Edmund: Well, thank you. I agree, and I don’t always agree with people’s opinions about my games. Every year around the anniversary of a game I release, I’ll play it again and see how it stands up and what I would have done differently. And The End is Nigh is one that I enjoy every time I play it. It feels like a game I didn’t make, but one I’m enjoying. I get why it’s not for everyone because it’s difficult, but it’s definitely my best work and the most cohesive, even though development was difficult because of where I was mentally and emotionally. It really flowed out, it felt effortless. It was a difficult but rewarding experience. I learned a lot about myself in the process. I’m glad it got made.
Are you able to separate the game and work from the difficulty in your life, then?
Edmund: It does feel like it’s not part of me. Usually it feels like it’s removed from me when something comes out. When I’m playing it, I don’t think about the development and what it means; I’m playing the game and I experience the game from a player’s perspective.
You’ve spoken about messages you’ve received from fans about how your games have helped them get through difficult times in their lives. Are there any games or experiences that did that for you?
Edmund: I remember playing Pokémon Blue when I was having problems. Playing Game Boy games when I was a kid while driving from Santa Cruz all the way up north to the McMillen house. I knew I wasn’t going to have a good time and it was going to be awful, and I was going to escape the awkward conversations and I was going to feel like an outcast. I was able to escape the drive there and back. To have my Game Boy when I was younger, and even older... to have it around when I had terrible stomach pains was a lifesaver for sure.
Isaac is semi-autobiographical and you put some of that into Repentance and other parts of Isaac.
Edmund: I think by far Isaac is closest to an autobiography and most direct. And the more time that passes, the more it feels like that. In a lot of ways, since you get to see all the spoilers and secrets, having had a daughter who is now the same age I was when my parents got divorced, I feel like I’m able to say more, and have a better perspective on situations. It was more appropriate for me to be able to speak to the relationship between Isaac and his mother, and between his mother and Isaac’s father.
Does your family know your relationship with Isaac?
Edmund: I don’t think so. They don’t play video games. But I know my dad knows the game’s theme is religious, and he appreciates that it’s religious. He installed it on some of the computers at his church. I remember telling him it’s kind of critical of religion, though. To him it’s OK, by the book.
Initially, Isaac was definitely me talking about how I struggled with religion growing up: what I believed, what worked for me, what didn’t, and the influence it had over me creatively... and in general, still to this day. As time passed, it became more of a personal thing about how I felt as a kid. Now it’s become more like talking about a poor family, a broken home and what happens to a creative kid who already feels like an outcast in a family that falls apart... in a world that’s falling apart, with nothing to hold on to except religion, with the hope that something good might happen eventually.
We’ve seen people relate to it from a dark place, but other players are able to enjoy and experience Isaac in another way
Edmund: When The Binding of Isaac came out, reading the description, people wondered why anyone would want to play it. And it’s been almost 10 years, so some people don’t see the different references. They don’t see the naked child, the child abuse. It’s just a video game, it’s just Smash T.V., and that’s the magic of video games. Something becomes part of the streaming culture—which is cool, to get to that point—because it’s a fun time-waster, and they don’t even see the story, the theme, the content, the M rating, the stuff that goes off into some other territory.
How does that change with Repentance?
Edmund: It was already serious before, and it’ll strike a chord with players. We’re closing the book on this, and I want to close the book hard. It’s not going to feel like a significant ending to Isaac if we don’t close it hard. I feel like Repentance has closure. It feels neat.
Have you thought about Isaac 10 or 20 years from now, how it will affect players and designers?
Edmund: Maybe we’ll do an ultimate version for the consoles 10 years from now for the 20-year anniversary.
Is Peach a fan of your work?
Edmund: She knows I make games; when we were playing Spelunky, she thought I made it. When my nephew was really young, he thought that everyone’s uncle made games, because I knew everyone who made the games he was playing. He felt like it was a really small world. I was trying to be the cool uncle with my niece, when she was into Minecraft and I was telling her that I know Notch. And I told her, “I could totally have him give you a call or record a message for you.” She asked if I knew DiamondDan—he’s a streamer she likes.
I’m sure it’s like that with Isaac. There are probably kids who play Isaac and their entire life might be Isaac, and the parents might offer to get a hold of me and the kid just wants NorthernLion.
So we’re just about done with Repentance development, then it’s Mew-Genics after that. Does Mew-Genics take place in the Isaac universe?
Edmund: It definitely takes place in The End is Nigh universe. Everything I made takes place in the same universe. All the games I’ve made since Aether take place in the same universe, a cohesive universe.
Isaac has to take place before The End is Nigh. And Time FCUK
Edmund: Of course. Time FCUK doesn’t take place in time. And Time FCUK takes place in some abstract stasis. At the end of The End is Nigh, you see that Steven is time, he’s the man on the world who turns it to make the days pass. Steven is more of an abstract concept.
What are you really happy about in Repentance?
Edmund: As a fan of Isaac, going in to play it, the first thing that a fan will be pleased by will be the attention to detail. There’s a surprising amount of little details in the Flash version that were left out of the later versions. They seemed insignificant at the time, because there was so much you guys added to Rebirth and it seemed great to me. We went back through and spent four months updating the game with tiny little details. I’ll say that all the old stuff is in. Fans will remember these things that haven’t been in the game for a long time. And there will be a shitload of new stuff that’s akin to that.
There’s a ____ _____ ____ that’s in ___ ____ and it’s ______ ____ _. You have a _____ of ____ and it’s _____ across_ and it’s _____ and _________ and doesn’t ____, but it’s one of those _____ things _____ that will _____. It’s one of those little things. That happened a lot in the Flash version. I think with Repentance, superfans will really feel that the world is even more alive. And little things that creep up on people, or really rare stuff that creates this illusion that the game goes infinite.
When I play Repentance, it feels like a new game.
Edmund: Have you played ____ __ _____? It changes the game.
To me, Greed was revolutionary, but now it feels like a bonus mini-game compared to Repentance.
Edmund: Now, yes, I would agree. It feels like a mini-game within the game. People won’t expect what’s coming with Repentance.
I was going over parts of the game with the guys, and they’re going through and adding what you and I like before we even ask. It goes back to your point about working with fans.
Edmund: I know what players expect, but they don’t expect what’s coming. It’s insane. I can guarantee that, and no one expects the amount of story and theme that will go to close. There’s a lot more going on.
Players are expecting the expected, but Repentance is really The Binding of Isaac 1.9. It’s as close to a sequel as we can get.
Edmund: I was going to say, this could be Isaac II. With Repentance, I think players will shit and realize what is going on and realize how much there is to do. There are players who have the three million percent.
There are players who have three million across multiple platforms!
Edmund: The thing is, I want people to know that ______ _____. We don’t not want to ____ ___, but when the time comes soon, when we do a release trailer we’re going to ____ ____.
We can post that when we get closer to release here. Players still send us screen shots and it’s in thousands of hours, and they’re going to double and triple that.
Edmund: [NOTE: Edmund gave a really good answer here and I had to redact the whole thing. I’m sorry. This will go in a dev post later.]
That’s it for now! We’ll be back with more info on 2020’s best game of the year. You’ve been patient with us and it’ll totally be worth it. We’re saving a lot of the best content for you to discover. x0x0
(NOTE: We have not confirmed the year, month, date and hour of the best game of the year. If you didn't already figure, the GOTY 2020 was lighthearted hyperbole. more xoxo)
